No More Learning

SLOTERDIJK: Maybe some financial genius will come along soon and show us that the United States’ national debt can tend towards infinity without anything happening. It would be a new mathematics that the brain of old Homo sapiens isn’t ready for.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But do you agree with the analysis that a recession would be the worst case?
SLOTERDIJK: I have another worst case in mind, that of com- plete general demoralization. That’s what we’re heading for.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Demoralization of society as a whole?
SLOTERDIJK: Collective demoralization is worse than a tem- porary recession can ever be. Recessions have the saving grace that they accustom people to exercising moderation again. I don’t mean being moderate as in tightening one’s belt, but practising modera- tion in terms of not losing one’s sense of proportion. We have lived for decades in a spooky atmosphere with ambiguous messages constantly raining down on people and making them crazy. They are being told simultaneously to save money and waste it; they are
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supposed to take risks and do solid business, and they are supposed to speculate sky-high and keep both feet on the ground. In the end this completely wears people down. The same demoralizing effect likewise comes from the rapid growth of incomes without perfor- mance. This poisons young people because they start dreaming about pursuing pseudo careers. The whole thing has an ugly psycho- logical name: the dream of excessive reward. Many people get up in the morning and want the highest premium right at the start. The inner millionaire has been awakened in everybody. However, he or she is simply not yet the same as the real, existing person.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But isn’t the same attitude there at both ends – at one end the bank employees, who rely on their bonus and have the feeling they are owed something; and at the other end those who believe they are owed part of the national income without doing any kind of work for it?
SLOTERDIJK: The welfare system is indispensable, but it also spreads disinformation that leads to false attitudes. The Americans took a more courageous route in the Clinton era. They took the vague idea that society owes us support when we’re in need and reworked it into the precise idea of welfare state credits with a time limit, which every citizen has a right to.
STEINGART/RIECKE: The programme was called ‘Welfare to Work’ . . .
SLOTERDIJK: And it meant that every citizen going through a bad patch could rely on support. The side effect of this was a sharp reduction in the intentional propagation of poverty within the welfare system. Before then, after giving birth to her fourth child a woman could get a secure position in the welfare system, rather like a public servant.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Ronald Reagan actually spoke of the ‘welfare queen’ who strutted through the ghettos because she boasted an astonishingly high income.
SLOTERDIJK: This phenomenon is also related to the false psycho-political construction of our fiscal affairs. When money first enters the fiscal system it is just a factor to be used, without charac- teristics. It doesn’t show the imprint of the donor group any longer. The recipient shouldn’t be able to trace the donors’ input at all. We used to call it ‘state dough’, neutralized money. This confuses the recipients because they can’t feel the warm current reaching them in a material sense from the donor side. On the contrary, there is often a kind of recipient anger because the clients are annoyed, thinking it could easily be more. We don’t know much about the real processes in the transfer.
STEINGART/RIECKE: That brings us back to the politicians
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again. You talked about the need to create an employers’ movement symbolically modelled on the workers’ movement. What can that achieve?
SLOTERDIJK: An employers’ movement is very meaningful if you use a metaphorical concept of the employer. Nowadays I would express it differently. We are looking at a new start in which each taxpayer is seen as a future sponsor. Only then will the com- munity be on the right psycho-political track. Everybody who fills the national coffers has the right to the title of sponsor. Sponsoring, in any case, demonstrates an interesting analogy to the relationship between taxpayers and the tax state because it is based on the idea of service in return. This should also apply to the situation between the fiscal system and citizens in a democracy. At the time I first proposed this idea, it was interpreted as an argument in support of universal patronizing arrogance. It’s actually about something very different, namely, that we should develop a universal sponsoring consciousness by which everybody who contributes to the com- munal economy should be recognized as a donor. In immensely big societies like ours, the currency of recognition is the psycho-political fluid that remains the only halfway reliable medium for democratic coherence.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Can you describe this in detail?
SLOTERDIJK: We can look back today on 3,000 years of high culture in which the coherence of the many was almost always created by phobocratic means: with the rule of fear, even in the churches. The great structures were integrated by fear of the Lord and consolidated with mechanisms of paranoid integration based on the idea of common enemies. We seem to have largely overcome all that. In present-day societies, which are primarily communities for shared concerns and entertainment, social coherence can’t be achieved with purely phobocratic methods. Threats don’t get us very far nowadays. From this perspective the Germans are amiable folk. For the past three or four years, they have been threatened daily with horror stories by climate theorists and tax or finance scaremongers. But what have the Germans done at Christmas time for the past three or four years? They have proved that people can’t be bullied in relation to their feeling about life. They have broken one consumer record after another. This tells us something that has far-reaching significance.
STEINGART/RIECKE: There are evidently social tendencies for immunization against scaremongering.
SLOTERDIJK: Your profession is getting more difficult too, isn’t it?
STEINGART/RIECKE: But we journalists are also working
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in the field of the quest for meaning. After all, newspaper readers aren’t only looking for shock and horror; they are looking for orien- tation as well. In this respect, we are all registering rising circulation and more website visits in this crisis, because people are looking for orientation and Mr Ackermann clearly can’t provide it on his own. 7
SLOTERDIJK: We are heading for a time when people will become aware of the experimental character of politics in general. More and more people are also starting to understand the experi- mental character of economic decisions at the highest level. That is very disturbing because there should be things that aren’t experi- mented with. That’s what the Pope says as well. But he’s more concerned with sex and the family.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Are you thinking about the state and the rules of the game for society?
SLOTERDIJK: Yes. Sometimes I think if Montesquieu came back, he would have to say to himself: I didn’t understand the dis- tribution of powers properly. I only mentioned the judicative, the legislative and the executive, but I didn’t take note of the speculative.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Habermas doesn’t even try to look for the psycho-social level, but says we should remove these things from the jurisdiction of the nation-state. He says we need new European institutions. He acts as if he were the new constructor of an extra supranational level that is supposed to use new institutions to solve our problems in this area, which is actually more pre-democratic than democratic. He is building a new Europe for himself. What do you think of that?
SLOTERDIJK: Habermas has evidently not thought through some of the assumptions of his theses properly. The fundamental thrust of his ideas is quite plausible and has a certain appeal. But the basic analysis is missing, because what he doesn’t see is that nation-states continue to exist today not only because of their slug- gishness, their traditions and their cultural attributes. They remain alive and have a future because their system of solidarity continues to be organized on a national scale. That means nobody today is a national socialist, but everybody is a social nationalist. Now, and for the foreseeable future, we are living in real social national- ism because the great majority of generational contracts are still concluded in a national format, with the exception of an ongoing but rather marginal tendency towards integrating migrants into
7 Swiss banker Josef Ackermann was chief executive officer of Deutsche Bank, Germany’s biggest banking group, from 2006 to 2012.
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national social budgets. However, we are still light years away from a supranational social state.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Wouldn’t a European transfer union create something like that?
SLOTERDIJK: No. We would achieve that if all Europeans were to receive their pensions from Brussels – that’s the way a united Europe would work. We can’t construct it from the other end, from the parliaments and the commissions. The social nationalist reflex is already there, and we can say, ‘Ubi bene, ibi patria’. I am at home where my retirement pension is guaranteed. The people who give me my homeland are those who calculate my pension. As long as that happens through the auspices of the good old Federal German Employment Agency or my public service pension scheme, I will keep my national ties and remain securely in the social insurance system. We could only think about the things Habermas is talking about if we could give that up. But, as always, he starts building from the top down.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Democracy appears too rarely in what constructivists are propagating now in terms of institutions and fiscal union – all the slogans all along the line from Habermas to Chancellor Merkel. 8 Not only do they fail to include the social insur- ance system, but the idea of democracy is also completely absent.
SLOTERDIJK: The very grand coalition of post-democrats that negotiates destinies in Europe has existed for a long time. Naturally it is a benevolent post-democracy, but of the kind that wants to force citizens to take part in all the procedures as always, only in this undignified form of compulsory fiscal behaviour that goes back to absolutism. In Habermas’s scheme there would be more parliamen- tary business and more elections, but his Europe would basically be the same monster consisting of twenty-seven states operating compulsory taxation that already completely bewilders citizens, only with more symbolic superstructure. If Europeans had more pride it wouldn’t be possible to keep playing this game with them. But as I have already pointed out, people have been trained for centuries in the deprivation of their dignity – the training of death and taxation – and that can’t be shaken off quickly. If a free spirit like Benjamin Franklin mentioned both things in one breath, then it is easy to understand why a social democrat today can only speak
8 Angela Merkel, a leading Conservative German politician and chair- person of the German Christian Democratic Party, served as Federal Chancellor of Germany from 2005.
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fatalistically about the topic of taxes, with an added twist: we’ll give fatalism a helping hand by increasing the highest tax rate.
STEINGART/RIECKE: So far we have talked a great deal about the state and its institutions. Could you please say something about capitalism and the money business: where do you think changes, changed thinking patterns and changed processes have to be imple- mented? Or is the state the main engine of events as a whole?
SLOTERDIJK: I think the state has made capital errors with its mad central-bank policy in the last twenty years, and now that people can see the results of those errors they want to correct them by repeating them on an even bigger scale. You only have to look fairly carefully at the effect of flooding the markets. The result is that most of that money – up to around 80 or 90 per cent – doesn’t go into the real economy but into financial speculation. We are dealing with purely technical central-bank mistakes, which you can easily understand if you read Walter Bagehot’s book Lombard Street, which is on my desk over there. It is the central bank errors that have opened the floodgates to speculation. That’s why I don’t believe a word of the greed psychology that is so fashionable right now. Of course people have the ‘I want’ reflex, particularly in the form of ‘I want as well’. There is women’s urge to collect, and men’s expectation of booty, and in our hermaphroditic age these two acquisition reflexes constantly get mixed up with each other. But who has left easy money lying around where anybody passing by would have to be an idiot not to take it? In the end it is the central bankers who have made speculation possible.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Show us the way out of this stupid situation.
SLOTERDIJK: The possibility for the real economy to obtain credit has to be decoupled from the shady, speculative world of commercial banks, funds and other institutions. In other words, if the state really wants to function usefully as a lender of last resort, in emergencies it should offer short cuts for genuine credit-seekers in the economy instead of throwing eight-tenths of smart money at speculators at low interest rates. A short cut of that kind between the highest-level bank and the real economy must be tried out, and there are clever institution designers around who understand such things. That would be a simple measure to restrain the financial market branch, which has become too powerful, to its limits within the system.
STEINGART/RIECKE: We began by acquitting the bankers as creditors. When it comes to guilt, are we going further now and saying that the central bankers are guilty?
SLOTERDIJK: Given the premise that the basic mistake has
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already been made, many banks have acted correctly – but, as we know, ‘There is no right life in a false life. ’9 Besides, the banking sector had its black sheep who are guilty above and beyond their role in that wicked game. Countless players have capitalized end- lessly on the structural errors of the finance system and have created a beautiful inflation of assets that was not easily visible to the general consumer public. But ordinary people must have the impression that the rich are getting richer all the time, and the poor poorer. That is only partially true because in hidden inflation the noted assets of the rich get bigger, but the bogus values can hardly be translated into market prices. This is clearly demonstrated by the derelict houses in the USA and Spain that can’t be sold.
STEINGART/RIECKE: What have you learned about our present system from the book on your desk – Bagehot’s classic Lombard Street – which was first published in 1874?
SLOTERDIJK: This book probably marks the first appearance of the idea that is falsely applied everywhere today: I mean the sug- gestion that the world’s central banks rapidly flood with money when recession threatens. Bagehot knew how bad a recession could be. He recommended avoiding shortage crises and suggested resort- ing to risky methods instead. He certainly couldn’t imagine that markets would be flooded for decades, as practised regularly by Greenspan and Co.
STEINGART/RIECKE: But that would mean you see the crisis as the result of the state’s failure. Yet you still have a mild view of Ms Merkel. Why?
SLOTERDIJK: True, I have a rather milder view of her at the moment. She is the premier essayist in the state nowadays. In that capacity, we can’t joke about her at all because she is really toiling away there at the head of the body politic. In any case, she already deserves the Nobel Prize for economics for her opposition to Euro Bonds, although she is surrounded by social populists right across Europe who would gladly have carried on playing their deadly game.
STEINGART/RIECKE: Does she get too little support from economics as an academic discipline?
SLOTERDIJK: Economic science seems to me to be a discipline that has lost its basic principles. The whole faculty is in a dreadful state. One increasingly gets the feeling that the theories as such are fiction that is trying to become reality and can’t be linked to any
9 Sloterdijk is referring to Adorno’s famous dictum, reproduced in Theodor Adorno, Minima Moralia (New York: Verso Books), 1978.
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external standard. This is not a new observation for a theorist of cognition. Niklas Luhmann10 had already stated twenty years ago that good theory is like a panel flight above closed cloud cover. Visual flight is only for amateurs; the clear view down to the ground is always harmful for social scientists because they let their subjec- tivity and sentimentality influence them.
STEINGART/RIECKE: We live in a period of permanent stress tests for our citizens. Right now, we are waiting for some parting words of comfort from the philosopher.
SLOTERDIJK: I have discovered a first-class comforter. STEINGART/RIECKE: A whisky?
SLOTERDIJK: One of the most beautiful proverbs I have come
across in a long time. It comes from Piet Klocke. Do you know him? STEINGART/RIECKE: Yes, of course.
SLOTERDIJK: He’s the fantastic cabaret artist . . . STEINGART/RIECKE: The one who sounds like Mr Rürup? 11 SLOTERDIJK: He has discovered that most sentences don’t
have to be spoken right to the end. He just runs on immediately into the next sentence. Well, I think we can pass on a proverb from Piet Klocke to people in need of comfort. It goes like this: ‘However big the chaos, there’s always a tiny spark of hopelessness in it somewhere. ’
STEINGART/RIECKE: Mr Sloterdijk, thank you for this interview.
10 Niklas Luhmann (1927–98) was an influential German sociologist and social theorist.
11 Bert Rürup is a German economist and former chairman of the German Council of Economic Experts. He was a leading consultant on the reform of the German pension and social welfare system from 2002 to 2009.
30
IS THERE A WAY OUT OF THE CRISIS OF WESTERN CULTURE?
Interview with Peter Sloterdijk and Slavoj Žižek*12
LE MONDE: For the first time in the history of the Western world, the future has run into a crisis. And the new generations don’t think they’ll have better lives than their predecessors. Lack of interest in politics, the economic crisis and retreat into the identity of our origins: how can we describe the moment in time we are pres- ently living through? Can we call it a crisis of culture?
SLOTERDIJK: What do we mean by using the term ‘Western culture’ for the culture we have lived in since the seventeenth century? In my opinion we are talking about a form of world based on the idea that the age of the cult of the past is over. The pre- eminence of the past has been destroyed. Western people invented an unprecedented life form founded on anticipating the future. This means we live in a world that is more and more strongly ‘futurized’. Consequently, I believe that at a deep level the meaning of our ‘being-in-the-world’ embraces futurism, and this is the fundamental feature of the way we exist. The pre-eminence of the future dates back to the epoch at the beginning of the Renaissance in which the West invented the new art of making promises. I mean the time at which credit intruded into the life of Europeans. In antiquity and the Middle Ages credit hardly played a role because it was managed
* This conversation between Peter Sloterdijk and Slavoj Žižek appeared under the title ‘Comment sortir de la crise de la civilisation occidentale? ’, in Le Monde (28 May 2011). Available at: <http://colblog. blog. lemonde. fr/2011/05/28/peter-sloterdijk-slavoj-zizek-comment-sortir-de-la-crise-de-la- civilisation-occidentale/>.
Slavoj Žižek is a philosopher, cultural critic and performer. The interviewer for Le Monde was Nicolas Truong.
Is There a Way Out of the Crisis of Western Culture? 257
by usurers who were condemned by the Church. The usurer directly blocked the future of anybody who had to repay credit. Modern loans, by contrast, loans with moderate interest, opened up a future. For the first time, promises of repayment could be fulfilled or honoured.
The crisis of culture involves this: we have reached an epoch in which credit is increasingly blocked from offering a sustainable future because nowadays people take out loans to repay other loans. In other words, ‘creditism’ has entered its final crisis. People have amassed so many debts that the promise of repayment that underpins the credibility of our construction of the world is no longer viable. The seriousness of the promise vanishes in the mists. If you ask Americans how they imagine the debts amassed by the US federal government will be repaid, their response will undoubt- edly be: ‘Nobody knows. ’ And I think this not-knowing is the hard core of our crisis. Nobody on earth knows how the collective debt should be repaid. The future of our culture has run up against a wall of debt.
ŽIŽEK: I completely agree with the idea of a crisis of ‘futurism’ and of the logic of loans. Let’s take the so-called ‘sub-prime’ eco- nomic crisis of 2008: everybody knew it was impossible to repay those mortgage loans but everybody behaved as if they were able to do so. In my psychoanalytic jargon I call this fetishist denial: ‘I know it’s impossible but I’m going to try anyway. . . . ’ People are well aware they can’t do it but in practice they act as if they actu- ally could. All the same, I would rather use the term ‘future’ to describe what Peter Sloterdijk calls ‘creditism’. The word ‘future’ seems more open to me, incidentally. The expression, ‘no future’ is pessimistic, but the word ‘future’ is more optimistic. I’m not trying to revive Marxist communism, which actually resembles immense creditism. To describe our economic and political, ideological and intellectual situation, I can only quote what is probably an apocry- phal story. It’s about a telegram exchange between the German and the Austrian general staff in the First World War. The Germans sent the Austrians a telegram with the words, ‘The situation here on the front is serious but not disastrous. ’ To which the Austrians replied, ‘Our situation here is disastrous but not serious’! And that’s exactly what is disastrous: people can’t pay their debts but in a sense they don’t take it seriously. Beyond that wall of debts the present epoch is approaching a kind of zero point. First, the massive economic crisis forces us not to stay on the same politico-economic track any longer. Second, as we can see in China, capitalism will not be naturally tied to parliamentary democracy in the future. Third, the bio-genetic revolution is forcing us to find a different kind of bio- politics. As for the social divisions in the world as a whole, they
258 Is There a Way Out of the Crisis of Western Culture?
create the conditions for unparalleled explosions and popular upris- ings . . .
LE MONDE: Multicultural capitalism or social individualism, global nationalism or global nomadism – the failure of Europe, the retreat into identities based on origins – the collective is also immersed in a crisis. How can the idea of communality be given new meaning today?
ŽIŽEK: Even if we must reject the naïve communitarianism, the homogenization of cultures and the kind of multiculturalism that has become the ideology of the new spirit of capitalism, we must still make the different cultures and the individual persons enter into dia- logue with each other. On the level of the individual we need a new logic of discretion, of distance or even of not-knowing. Coexistence in a tight space has become a total reality, which means we are dealing with a need that is vital for life, a crucial point.
On the collective level we must really find a different way to articulate communality. Multiculturalism is completely wrong as a response to the problem, on the one hand because it is a kind of unprofessed racism that respects the identity of the other but impris- ons him or her in terms of their particular characteristics. It’s a kind of neo-colonialism that reverses classical colonialism by ‘respecting’ communities, but from the perspective of its universal stance. On the other hand, multicultural tolerance is a decoy that de-politicizes public debate and diverts social questions towards race issues and economic questions towards ethnic issues. This attitude of the postmodern left wing is intrinsically estranged from the world in many respects. Buddhism, for example, can serve and legitimate an extreme form of militarism. In the period between 1930 and 1940, the entire institution of Zen Buddhism not only supported but also legitimated the hegemony of Japanese imperialism. I like using the word ‘communism’, particularly to provoke upper-class types, but the questions I am asking actually relate to ‘communal’ properties such as biogenetics and ecology.
SLOTERDIJK: We have to rediscover the real problems of our times. The memory of communism and of the great tragic experience of twentieth-century politics warns us that there are no dogmatic and automatic ideological solutions. The problem of the twenty-first century is that of coexistence in a ‘humankind’ that has become a physical reality. It is no longer a matter of the ‘abstract universalism’ of the Enlightenment but of the real universality of an enormous collective that is starting to become a real-life community of circulation with greater opportunities for continual encounters and clashes.
We have become like particles of a gas under pressure. The
Is There a Way Out of the Crisis of Western Culture? 259
question nowadays concerns social ties within an oversized society, and I think the legacy of the so-called religions is important because they represent the first attempts at meta-national or meta-ethnic syntheses. The Buddhist sangha was a spaceship in which desert- ers from all ethnic backgrounds could take refuge. We could use a similar description for Christianity, which is a kind of social synthesis that transcends the dynamic of closed ethnicities and the subdivisions of class societies. The dialogue of religion in our times is nothing but reformatting of the problem of ‘communism’. The assembly held in Chicago in 1893, the World’s Parliament of Religions, was a particular way to pose questions for our times with the aid of these fragments, these representatives of unknown origin of the human family members who had lost touch with each other after they left Africa . . . In the age of assembly, human beings have to restructure and reformat everything they previously thought about the bond of coexistence of a humankind without boundaries. That is why I use the term ‘co-immunism’.
All the social federations of history, from primal hordes to world empires are, in fact, structures of co-immunity. The choice of this concept recalls the communist legacy. In my analysis, communism goes back to Rousseau and his idea of the ‘religion of man’. This is a constitutive term, a sort of communitarianism on a global scale. This exaggerated homogenization inevitably had terrible consequences – but they were probably unavoidable errors. Although we know more today, the problem still oppresses us. We can’t escape this situ- ation. The goddess, or divine being, that appears on the last pages of my book is the crisis: it is the only instance that has enough author- ity to make us change our lives. 1 Our starting point is a shattering, evident truth: we can’t go on like this.
ŽIŽEK: I’m less interested in looking for ‘co-immunism’ than in reviving the idea of true communism. But I assure you, it is more about Kafka’s than Stalin’s communism, more about the com- munism of Erik Satie than that of Lenin. In his last short story, ‘Josephine the Singer or The Mouse Folk’, Kafka sketched the utopia of an egalitarian society, a world in which artists like the singer Josephine, whose singing draws big crowds and fascinates and astonishes them, are celebrated and showered with compli- ments but without gaining any material benefits from this. It is a picture of a society of recognition that maintains ritual and revives community festivities but without hierarchy or herd behaviour.
1 Peter Sloterdijk, You Must Change Your Life, trans. Wieland Hoban (Cambridge: Polity), 2013, p. 444.
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The same applies to Erik Satie. Everything about Satie, the famous composer of the Gymnopédies who declared he was composing ‘wallpaper music’, music for an environment or background, seems removed from politics. Yet Satie was a member of the Communist Party. Far from writing propaganda songs, he gave auditory expres- sion to a kind of collective intimacy, the exact opposite of elevator music. That is what my idea of communism consists of.
LE MONDE: Peter Sloterdijk, your solution for getting out of this crisis is to reactivate the practice of individual spiritual exercises – whereas you, Slavoj Žižek, insist on political, collective mobilization and on reactivating the emancipatory power of Christianity. Why is there such a divergence?
SLOTERDIJK: My proposal simply calls for introducing pragma- tism into the study of so-called religions. This pragmatic dimension forces you to look more closely at what religious people do, namely, internal and external practices that we can describe as exercises that build a personality structure. What I describe as the chief subject of philosophy and psychology is the system of a series of exercises that form the personality. And some of these exercise series that make up the personality can be described as religious. But what does that mean? We make spiritual movements to communicate with an invisible partner. These are absolutely concrete things that can be described. There is nothing mysterious in this. I think that so far the concept of a ‘system of exercises’ is a thousand times more effective and useful than the term ‘religion’, which relates back to the state bigotry of the Romans. We shouldn’t forget that the Romans reserved use of the terms ‘religion’, ‘piety’ or ‘loyalty to the faith’ for the Roman legions stationed in the Rhine Valley and lots of other places. The greatest privilege for a legion was to be awarded the designation pia fidelis because it expressed special loyalty to the Emperor in Rome. I think Europeans have simply forgotten what religio means. The literal meaning of the word is ‘care’. Cicero provided its correct etymology: ‘to read’ – legere, religere, which means, to make a careful study of the protocol that regulates communication with higher beings. In other words, it concerns a specific kind of care or, in my terminology, a training code. This is why I believe the ‘religious return’ can only be effective when it leads to the practice of intensive exercises. By con- trast, our ‘new religious people’ are mostly lazy dreamers. But in the twentieth century, sport gained precedence in Western culture. It is not religion that has returned, but sport, after being nearly forgotten for 1,500 years. Not fideism, but athleticism came to the fore. At the dawn of the twentieth century, Pierre de Coubertin wanted to create a religion of muscles. Although he failed to found a religion, he tri- umphed as the creator of a new system of exercises.
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ŽIŽEK: Early on, the Russian avant-garde artists saw sport as a totality of physical practices. The Soviet director Sergey Eisenstein (1898–1948) wrote a very fine text about the Jesuit Ignatius von Loyola (1491–1556), who was concerned with forgetting God, or at least was somebody who established specific spiritual exercises. My thesis of the return of Christianity is very paradoxical: I believe one can only really feel like an atheist via Christianity. If you look at the great atheist movements of the twentieth century, in reality we are dealing with quite a different logic, namely that of theologi- cal ‘creditism’. The Danish physicist Niels Bohr (1885–1962), one of the founders of quantum mechanics, had a visit from a friend at his weekend cottage. The friend hesitated to go through the door of the house because of a horseshoe nailed there – in Central Europe this is a superstitious custom to stop evil spirits from entering. Niels Bohr’s friend said to him: ‘You’re a leading scientist. How can you obey that kind of popular superstition? ’ To which Bohr replied, ‘I don’t believe in it at all! ’ ‘So why do you leave the horseshoe there? ’ his friend insisted. And Niels Bohr gave the following beautiful answer: ‘Somebody told me it works even if you don’t believe in it! ’ That would be a very good picture of our present ideology. I think the death of Christ on the cross means the death of God and that he is no longer the Great Other who holds the strings. The only possibility of being a believer after the death of Christ is to be part of collective egalitarian relationships. Christianity can be seen as a religion that accompanies the ruling order, or as a religion that says ‘No’ and helps people to oppose that order. I think Christianity and Marxism have to combat jointly the surge of new kinds of spiritu- ality and capitalist herd behaviour. I represent a religion without God, a communism without masters.
SLOTERDIJK: Let’s suppose we landed at the closing session of the Council of Nicaea and during the assembly one of the archbish- ops asked: should we put our brother Slavoj Žižek on the Index? I think the great majority would vote for an anathema because he is committing what the elders called a ‘heresy’. Slavoj Žižek takes a selective position with regard to the whole truth: heresy means selection. And in this particular case, selection involves omitting the sequel to the Bible story that tells of the resurrection after the death of Christ. If you leave out the resurrection you forget the main issue, because the message of Christianity is that death is no threat to us any more. The worldwide success of Christianity is based not only on the message of universal love but, above all, on the neutraliza- tion of the threats with which death weighs on every conscience. Without ignoring pagan phobocracy: all empires are founded on the power of fear. We can tell the story as Slavoj Žižek has done, but we
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have to add a second, liberating dimension: without a rupture with phobocracy, the rule of fear, there is no freedom, either Christian or atheist. Otherwise we are only exchanging masters: Jupiter or Christ, there’s no difference at all as long as the two divine beings remain phobocratic powers. Regrettably, Christianity has become the most terrible phobocracy in the whole history of religion, espe- cially through Augustine, who created a veritable fear reactor with his theory of predestination. Fortunately, the philosophy of the Enlightenment deactivated it. Christian phobocracy even persisted in the communist adventure, in the form of state terrorism. And the story isn’t over yet. Muslim phobocracy is not willing to stop. We have to reconstruct the emancipatory dimensions of an enlightened Christianity for everyone looking for a way out of the concentra- tion camp world of classical phobocrats. And I will gladly accept an atheist reconstruction on condition that the emphasis is on eliminat- ing the phobocratic elements of ancient paganism.
LE MONDE: The historical moment we are presently living through seems to be characterized by rage. The sense of outrage peaked in the slogan of the Arab revolutions, ‘Get out! ’, or the democratic protests in Spain. If we can believe Slavoj Žižek, then you, Peter Sloterdijk, are too severe towards the social movements you regard as originating from resentment.
SLOTERDIJK: You have to distinguish between rage and resent- ment. In my opinion there is a whole spectrum of emotions that belong to the realm of thymos, that is, to the realm of pride. There is a kind of fundamental, irreducible pride that resides in the very depths of our being. Joviality, a benevolent view of everything that exists, can be expressed on this thymotic spectrum. Here, the psy- chological field is never clouded over. If we descend a few steps on the ladder of values we come to self-pride. If we go down further we come to humiliation of this pride, which provokes rage. If the rage cannot be expressed and is condemned to waiting to be expressed later and elsewhere, this leads to resentment, and so the process goes on, ending up with destructive hate that really wants to annihilate the object that caused the humiliation. Let’s not forget that, accord- ing to Aristotle, good rage is the feeling that accompanies the desire for justice. Justice that knows no rage remains a helpless movement. The socialist tendencies of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries created collection points of collective rage. That was doubtless something very right and very important. Tragically, however, too many people and too many organizations of the traditional left slid into resentment. This creates the urgent need to think about and imagine a new left beyond resentments.
ŽIŽEK: What satisfies the conscious mind in resentment is related
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more to the fact that we harm other people and destroy the obstacle than with benefiting ourselves. We Slovenians are like that by nature. You know the legend in which an angel appears to a farmer and asks him, ‘Do you want me to give you a cow? But watch out, I’ll also give your neighbour two cows! ’ And the Slovenian farmer says, ‘Of course not! ’ Yet for me, resentment is never really the attitude of the poor. It is rather the attitude of poor lords – Nietzsche analysed that very well. It is the morality of ‘slaves’. Only he was wrong in relation to the social standpoint: it is not about real slaves but about the slaves that Beaumarchais’ Figaro wants to substitute for the masters. I think capitalism contains a very specific combination of the thymotic aspect and the erotic aspect. Capitalist eroticism, in comparison with bad thymotics, which creates resentment, is totally mediated: ‘I want to have that, not for myself but so that somebody else doesn’t get it. ’ I agree with Peter Sloterdijk: basically the biggest difficulty lies in the question of how to conceive and describe the act of giving beyond exchange and beyond resentment. I’m rather pessimistic about that. People are corrupt; they can’t be changed. Sometimes it’s possible, depending on the circumstances. You know the totalitarian formula: ‘You love mankind in the abstract but you hate real people. ’ Well, in this respect I’m totalitarian – I love humankind but I often find real people weak, wicked and cowardly. I deeply and utterly deplore all that human stupidity.
I don’t actually believe in the reality of the spiritual exercises Peter Sloterdijk proposes. I’m too pessimistic for that. I would like to add a social heterotopia to those sporting-type practices of self- discipline. That’s why I wrote the final chapter of Living in the End Times2 in which I sketch out a utopian space of communism by referring to works that make what we could call collective intimacy visible and audible. I’m also inspired by certain science-fiction films in which chaotic heroes and neurotic types form real collectives. Individual life stories can guide us as well. It is often forgotten that Victor Kravchenko (1905–66), the Soviet sport medallist who criti- cized Stalinist terror very early on in his book, I Chose Freedom, and who was shamefully attacked by pro-Soviet intellectuals, wrote a sequel with the title, I Chose Justice, during the struggle to construct a more equitable agricultural production system in Bolivia. We should follow and encourage the new Kravchenkos who are now appearing everywhere, from South America to the Mediterranean coast.
SLOTERDIJK: I think you are a victim of the psycho-political 2 Slavoj Žižek, Living in the End Times (London: Verso Books), 2010.
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evolution of the East European states. Everyone in Russia, for example, is carrying the load of a whole century of political and per- sonal catastrophes on their shoulders. The tragedy of communism still affects the peoples of Eastern Europe and they can’t get away from it. All of that creates a spiral of autogenous despair. Although I’m a pessimist by nature, life has refuted my original pessimism. You could call me an optimist who achieved optimism at the second attempt. In this respect, I think, we are quite close because we began from radically different starting points and have had parallel biogra- phies in some senses, reading the same books along the way.
LE MONDE: To sum up, a word about the affair of Dominique Strauss-Kahn. 3 Is this a case of a simple moral lapse or a symptom of a more important malaise?
SLOTERDIJK: We can’t dismiss the possibility that it is about a matter of global importance that goes beyond an ordinary every- day event. Maybe Dominique Strauss-Kahn is innocent. But the story shows that over-exaggerating the power of an individual can create a kind of religion of the powerful that I describe as sexual pantheism.